. . . I thought it was a good answer, but obviously you disagree?

No, I told you once already. It was a rhetorical question. The answer was IN the question. It is impossible (in my logic) for imperfection to arise from perfection should such perfection truly be the catalyst of all there is.

I had previously given you more credit - an ability to step OUT of your subjective views to discuss topics on a common ground that doesn't admit one person's reality to the subjugation of anothers'. I don't know what you mean here dude.

I mean that for you, there are things you know to be true in what you call your heart. It's actually your brain telling you these things, but that's a whole other argument. Let's just hypothesize that you are "following your heart" as some are fond of saying. You, as you have stated yet again, are sure that "your heart" is right. Ok, let's say it is.

But you also say that "your heart" is subjective to you. Your quote for other readers:

In my opinion, that’s not true from the point of view of our heart, which, deep down, already knows “the Truth”. (That’s my subjective point of view.

Ok, Anj. *My* heart tells me you're wrong. Now what ya gonna do? Whose heart is right in a subjective world? You say yours, and I say mine. By allowing subjectivity to be used in a discussion, this is the situation you relegate yourself to and will continue to relegate yourself to until you use something we can all pretty much agree is true as a support for your beliefs. But surely you knew this? I am asking you to draw upon the things we agree exist to prove, or at least substantiate as feasible and possible, your point of view.

"Our human interpretation of anything ‘objective’ is necessarily subjective.

I'm really done with this debate. Here's an object lesson (pun intended). This is what most of the world agrees on straight from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

-------------------

ob·jec·tive

adj.



   1. Of or having to do with a material object.

   2. Having actual existence or reality.

   3.

         1. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.

         2. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.

-------------------

sub·jec·tive

adj.



   1.

         1. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.

         2. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.

   2. Moodily introspective.

   3. Existing only in the mind; illusory.

   4. Psychology. Existing only within the experiencer's mind.

---------------------

This orange exists - Objective.

Oranges taste bad - Subjective.

Get it?

And because I tell you in my heart of hearts oranges taste bad, and I know that it is so does not make it so for everybody. My sincere belief in my subjective views does not make them objective, testable, observable facts.

When I read your thoughts written here, I think you are trying to convince the readers that YOUR subjectivity is THE subjectivity we will all come to once we just wake up. If what you're then telling me is that YOUR subjective reality is truly objective reality, then show me your proof so I can see. Wake us all up with frequencies in our range of detection since quite clearly in YOUR mind (shoot, I mean heart) we don't have your quality of sensors. Many of us will be relieved that we no longer need to occupy ourselves with these burning questions just as soon as you reveal the objectivity of your beliefs to us.

There's a catch though. You can't be subjective in your proof. Nor can you use anything not objectively proven and present it as such. You have to use terms we all can agree are like the orange which is clearly sitting there. If you don't, you are asking us to put our own subjective beliefs (which feel just as real to us as yours feel to you) into a trunk and to believe what you believe on the basis that not you, and not your brain, and not your reason or your logic, but your HEART, which is a muscle without a single neuron in it, thinks it is so for some undefineable reason.

Now...is that what *you* do? If I tell you that I believe with all my heart there is no God, will you change your mind about what you believe and see things my way?

I didn't think so, nor would I expect you to.

Oh dear, this is too much like an old record.

Which is what I was trying to tell you. So throw away the record. Your truth might actually BE THE truth. I do not know. But I DO know you aren't going to prove it with that same old stale religious SUBJECTIVE rhetoric, and if you're not out to prove it, then why state it like it's a fact?

PS. This applies to opposite sides of fences everywhere. Religion, Politics, 90% of all JU articles, etc...

Ciao bellos e bellisimas.

When I read your thoughts written here, I think you are trying to convince the readers that YOUR subjectivity is THE subjectivity we will all come to once we just wake up. If what you're then telling me is that YOUR subjective reality is truly objective reality, then show me your proof so I can see. Wake us all up with frequencies in our range of detection since quite clearly in YOUR mind (shoot, I mean heart) we don't have your quality of sensors. Many of us will be relieved that we no longer need to occupy ourselves with these burning questions just as soon as you reveal the objectivity of your beliefs to us. There's a catch though. You can't be subjective in your proof. Nor can you use anything not objectively proven and present it as such. You have to use terms we all can agree are like the orange which is clearly sitting there. If you don't, you are asking us to put our own subjective beliefs

I think you've misunderstood where I'm coming from. I'm not asking anyone to believe anything, and neither am I trying to prove anything. I'm just a dork sitting at a PC sharing my points of view. There's no need for conflict or friction.

*My* heart tells me you're wrong. Now what ya gonna do?

That's harmonious with the point I've been making, that we all have different points of view. As long as we find peace with our own model of the world, then that's what counts. I've been more interested in the nature of the Infinite and our place in the bigger picture, rather than the taste of oranges. I've learned that due to the nature of Ultimate Reality, inner peace is a natural by-product once we possess an enlightened view of the world.

Psychic intuition and spiritual awareness are states of consciousness, which unfold naturally as we grow spiritually. (This is why such heightened awareness is necessarily subjective, at least whilst we’re down here in human form.) In the words of Jospeh Benner, “Spiritual growth results in an expansion of consciousness and opens up a new world, one of which previously the seeker had been wholly unaware, although it had always been present awaiting his recognition.”

I said "whilst we’re in human form", because I'm aware that in the afterlife our perspective of reality is totally different to our point of view down here. In the hereafter, no one will be able to doubt God’s existence, and no one will doubt the principle that life continues after death. Yet it’s within the human potential to know such things whilst still on earth. As Jesus said, “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

Esoteric knowledge and higher spiritual truths are what I refer to as the “wisdom of the heart”, which transcends the intellect alone. Regarding these deeper issues of existence, we all have different points of view and opinions, simply because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. I believe that the Truth strikes a chord with the heart, and with the head, when we're ready for it.

Yet these are all simply my views, and I share them with integrity. I'm not asking anyone to think anything, or to believe anything. I think it's healthy to hear different points of view.

So throw away the record.

That might be wisest thing for me to do, Ock, because I'm probably sounding too dogmatic here. I'm also repeating myself, and I might be causing more friction than otherwise. Still, it's all good stuff in my view.

Zoologist, do you believe that hell will be experienced by a soul for ever and ever, without a chance in the afterlife to escape it or be redeemed?

Hmm...I'm inclined to think that eventually there may be a chance for redemption...of course, it's all speculation.

~Zoo

I've learned that due to the nature of Ultimate Reality, inner peace is a natural by-product once we possess an enlightened view of the world.

Tell me the nature of ultimate reality. By what mechanism does the inner peace become produced (as a by product). Throw in your definition of "natural" as you use it here, also, please.

Psychic intuition and spiritual awareness are states of consciousness, which unfold naturally as we grow spiritually.

Are you claiming the sufficient spiritual growth to state that as a fact?

I said "whilst we’re in human form", because I'm aware that in the afterlife our perspective of reality is totally different to our point of view down here.

You're aware of what the afterlife is like from personal experience? That seems impossible since I'm guessing you're still alive.

Yet it’s within the human potential to know such things whilst still on earth.

I haven't personally seen proof of that either. I've heard a lot of stories. I'm willing to say that I hope you're right.

Esoteric knowledge and higher spiritual truths are what I refer to as the “wisdom of the heart”, which transcends the intellect alone.

The "wisdom of the heart" is a subset of your intellect.

I'm not asking anyone to think anything, or to believe anything.

Sometimes they can sound programmed, and sometimes they can sound dogmatic, but that's only because I'm sure about my views.

Hmmmm.

There's no need for conflict or friction.

There is every need. Ever try to live without them?

Tell me the nature of ultimate reality. By what mechanism does the inner peace become produced (as a by product). Throw in your definition of "natural" as you use it here, also, please.

The ultimate dimension of reality is Spirit. Our existence is no accident. Life has a deeper purpose, and death is not the end. When we die, our soul continues to experience life in Heaven, and we freely choose to incarnate on physical planes such as earth as many times as we like. (etc. I’ve described this in more detail on other threads, so won't repeat it all here.)

This is the nature of ultimate reality. Due to the natural laws of spiritual growth, it’s humanity’s destiny to eventually awaken to the larger truths of life. This growth is “natural”, in the sense that our consciousness and spiritual awareness unfolds and blossoms, just as a flower unfolds and blossoms naturally. (The Buddhist sutra of the lotus flower is good metaphor for humanity’s spiritual blossoming.) Inner peace is a natural by-product of such spiritual awakening, because the basis of our existence is rooted in infinite security and in the unconditional love of God. To be aware of such principles will naturally provide a better sense of inner peace, greater self-worth and security.

Psychic intuition and spiritual awareness are states of consciousness, which unfold naturally as we grow spiritually.

Are you claiming the sufficient spiritual growth to state that as a fact?

Apparently I am. Either that, or I’ve taken a crude ‘quick route’ to heightened spiritual awareness by being born a ‘freak’ psychic. But as far as I’m aware I’ve taken the long route, and have got here after living many lifetimes.

You're aware of what the afterlife is like from personal experience? That seems impossible since I'm guessing you're still alive.

Psychic ability comes in many different forms. The model of the world that I’ve described on these threads - that we abide in Heaven, and choose our lives on earth etc. - is a view shared by many psychics. Some of these psychics have been gifted with the traditional ‘sixth sense’, which enables them to see the vibrational energy of people living in the spirit world. Or it enables them to receive information from deceased spirits. My psychic gift happens to come in the form of acute inner-intuition. Since I was young I knew that God exists. I knew that there was deeper meaning to life. This wasn’t merely ‘belief’. It was knowledge. But this ‘broad stroke’ conviction lacked details. My time of clarity came when I began to read books written by other psychics, who all described details such as those I’ve shared. As soon as I read them, I knew that this was the truth – a description of the way things really are. Every fibre of my being resonated, and my soul’s inner-wisdom awakened.

I haven't personally seen proof of that.

Some things are secret for a reason. It’s all part of the divine plan. As we spend most of eternity in the Light, our souls need to know what it feels like to experience “darkness”. Our earth-lives provide perfect opportunities to do this. Once we have tasted the darkness, and have eaten to satiation the fruits of so-called good and evil, we can better appreciate the Light, which is our eternal heritage.

The "wisdom of the heart" is a subset of your intellect.

It’s a subset of our consciousness. Consciousness stems deeper than most people are aware. The soul is the core of our being – a deeper form of consciousness which vibrates at similar frequencies to our Heavenly home. (“The Kingdom of God is within you”, as Jesus said.) Wisdom is soul-knowledge, and when a person reaches a certain degree of spiritual growth, their soul-consciousness blossoms and enables their mortal ‘brain-consciousness’ to become enlightened. Deep down, the soul always contains the truth about God and the blueprint for our lives. But most of us are fast asleep.

The next phase of human evolution is psychic intuition and spiritual awareness. We can't escape the laws of growth, and humanity, as a ‘global consciousness’, will eventually become aware of these larger truths of life. Naturally, to those who aren’t ready, such a model of the world will seem like wishful thinking, and those who believe in it might be considered misguided.

There's no need for conflict or friction.

There is every need. Ever try to live without them?.

There comes a time when we have enough of conflict and friction. We feel that we’ve experienced enough of it, we’ve grown enough because of it, and in turn we begin to seek inner peace and harmony. Feelings of conflict and friction stem from within, as does inner peace and harmony. Our inner state doesn’t have to be governed by our external conditions or by other people's opinions. We possess the power to overcome any problem from within. Whether we can (or do) or not, generally depends on our level of spiritual advancement. In the meantime, along the way, friction and conflict is inherent to the human condition, and as you rightly say, we can’t live without it.

Yet even though friction exists for an all-wise and beneficent purpose, it’s possible for us to overcome it. Humanity’s struggles for ‘survival of the fittest’, ‘might is right’, and ‘possession-power’ etc. are natural phases of our evolution. Our real power is rooted in love, compassion, forgiveness, understanding etc. - fruits of the Spirit. Whilst these are our true strengths, however, we as a human race aren’t yet developed (or evolved) enough to exercise them in full. We don't possess enough spiritual wealth or wisdom. But it will come in its own time, when we've matured somewhat.

As the philosopher in Ecclesiastes said, “There is a season and a time for every purpose under Heaven.” (Ecclesiastes 3.1)

How do you use this intuition in life? Have you applied it to a career? Have you started a church of some sort? Do you provide guidance for solving crimes or what? You don't use it to interpret the questions I ask, that's for sure.

Has your acute inner intuition told you who I really am yet?

For reference, this is a question about patterns - my peculiar specialty that I'll describe later if you like, though there is nothing supernatural about it. Do you know about "different voicings?" Describe what you know.

Name one element that your acute inner intuition tells you is missing from your own perfection. Expound on why it keeps you from perfection.

Tell me what your intuition has revealed to you is the purpose for this cycle of your planar manifestation. What are you here to do/learn?

Give me an example of your clarity by bending all of your acute intuition on what I'm asking and then answering it. Unfortunately, that's a bit of a test, but I'm trying to take you at your word, and if I can, it shouldn't be an issue.

How do you use this intuition in life? Have you applied it to a career? Have you started a church of some sort? Do you provide guidance for solving crimes or what?

It’s ‘used’ as an integral part of my daily life. The fact that I possess this inner-intuition is out of my hands. But it’s shaped who I am as a person. I'd like to think that it enables me to be used by God as a loving and peaceful instrument in a harsh world. One thing that it shapes is that I pray for three hours a day, (i.e. three separate sessions). This isn’t a dogmatic ritual that I have to force, incidentally. It comes as naturally to me as eating. It’s just a personal thing, and I if I don’t pray or meditate then I don’t feel complete.

It’s also “applied” daily in the sense that I’m unusually laid back in life, as those who know me would testify. I have an uncanny ability to remain unperturbed in the face of calamity. This ranges from simple situations such as dealing with so-called stressful situations at work, (I’m a software developer, by the way), to a time when my car’s tyre blew out on the motorway. Travelling at 70mph the car went hurtling off the motorway into a ditch. But throughout the experience, all I could feel was a deep sense of peace, and a prayer running through my head: “This is in your hands, Father. What will be will be.”

From the soul’s reckoning, nothing really matters, ultimately. My personality seems to be unusually aligned with this deep seated soul-knowledge. It's true that we’re all safe in God’s hands, and there’s nothing at all to fear. That’s just the way it is. Whether we’re aware of this or not is another matter.

Has your acute inner intuition told you who I really am yet?

You’re a spiritual being who has embarked on a sacred journey. You’re a beloved child of God, a truly magnificent creation, and you’ll exist for all eternity. That’s all I know about you, to be honest. It's who you really are. I don’t know much about your personality though, as I haven’t known you long enough, (if writing in JU can be classed as “known”.)

For reference, this is a question about patterns - my peculiar specialty that I'll describe later if you like

Yes, I’d love to hear about it. What’s your speciality? When you say “patterns”, is your field of interest psychology? I’d be interested to you’re your views on my patterns?

though there is nothing supernatural about it.

There’s nothing supernatural about anything, at the end of the day. Everything is ‘natural’, including God. Psychic ability is natural. It just varies in degree from person to person. The more lifetimes we live, the more our psychic faculties unfold and the more spiritually aware we become. It’s a natural process of growth. It’s true that some people are born ‘freak’ psychics, and haven’t necessarily grown to such degrees of psychic unfoldment at all. But most of us will get there eventually in one lifetime or another, if we incarnate enough.

Do you know about "different voicings?" Describe what you know.

I don’t think I’ve heard of that one before. What is it?

Name one element that your acute inner intuition tells you is missing from your own perfection. Expound on why it keeps you from perfection.

We’re all perfect in the eyes of God, just as we are. From an earthly point of view, we might have imperfections. Yet whether one perceives things as “imperfect” or not is subjective. I believe that in the highest sense, everything is perfect. We’ve all been created by God, so I’m perfect, just as you are perfect.

Tell me what your intuition has revealed to you is the purpose for this cycle of your planar manifestation. What are you here to do/learn?

A primary purpose is to build spiritual muscle and to advance spiritually. That’s the same for us all, and it’s a universal purpose that we all share. Other than that, many of us have different life-themes and different reasons for incarnating. Some people have karmic debts to pay off, others have addictive tendencies in their personalities to overcome etc.

I’ve just finished writing a book called ‘Christianity Coming Home’, which I’ve been writing for 8 years. Whether it’s one of my purposes to get it published in order to share a deeper interpretation of Christian fundamentals, I don’t know yet. That’s in God’s hands, and time will tell. If in the end the book doesn’t get published, then I’ll accept that it was destined to be a nice hobby, and I’ll have learned a lot from my research and from the writing on a personal level. (I don’t express my Christian views on these threads, incidentally. I’ve had my fill of writing about them in my book, so JU gives me a good break from it.)

What do you think your purpose would be in your incarnation this time round Ock? Even if you don’t believe in it, treat it as a hypothetical question.

Give me an example of your clarity by bending all of your acute intuition on what I'm asking and then answering it. Unfortunately, that's a bit of a test, but I'm trying to take you at your word, and if I can, it shouldn't be an issue.

It’s not an issue with me. Whether other people have issues with what I write is out of my hands. I think it’s nice to share points of view and to hear other people’s views in JU. For the record, I rarely speak to people outside of here about this “inner-intuition”, unless people ask me about it specifically. I’ve learned that it’s wise to walk the path than to talk the path. JU is my time of release, in the sense that it enables me to verbally express my views, which makes a pleasant change.

Regarding your questions, I answer them as honestly and as best I can. I’m not sure if I answer them very well, but I’m sure you’ll let me know one way or another. If they’re different to your original direction of intent, then we might be coming at it from different wavelengths, or at least different angles. It’s all good stuff either way, because different views make life so rich. We can have a delicious conversation nonetheless. (Although maybe your ‘orange’ analogy might come into play, in that sense?)

I think we've jacked this thread long enough. Send me email at stevecb38@yahoo.com. From there I'll send you my real email address, and if you care to explore this diversity further, we can. A real-time conversation on the subject might be even better, but we can discuss that later.

Ciao,
Ock

Thanks Ock, I'll drop you a line some other time. Yet again I've re-read that last post, and my God I make myself cringe. It's no wonder I keep this shite to myself. It all sounds so clinical and programmed. I'm going to have to jack this stuff in sometime soon and stick with the silence. It's horrible, man. I'd hate to be someone else reading my posts

The interesting bit here is how selective people can be about God... A woman drops over from a heart attack in a chapel praying for her dying husband, the doctors bring her back from the brink of death... She credits God for saving her life (to hell with the science right?) yet skips over the blame for the heart attack in the first place!

With that logic I should be able to rob her... then give her back 80% of her money and she would thank me for it?

How about this... When you have a friend or anyone that's going through a hard time, save the energy and time you'd spend praying for them, and actually help them. So if your my friend and in a hard time... You'll hear me say, I'm here for you, if theres anything I can do I'll help, let me know.

What's the harm in doing both?

She credits God for saving her life (to hell with the science right?) yet skips over the blame for the heart attack in the first place!

I agree greywar. It's like folk who survive plane crashes. I saw an interview not long ago with a lady who'd survived the tsunami earlier this year. She was a hair's breadth from death, but she "miraculously survived". In the interview she said, "It's a miracle. By God's grace I'm still here."

Excuse me. What about the 150,000 who aren't still here?

I don't believe in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and with things like plane crashes, heart attacks or tsunamis, we'll probably only find out the true reasons when we get Home, (the agendas will be different for each soul involved), and everything will make perfect sense.

How about this... When you have a friend or anyone that's going through a hard time, save the energy and time you'd spend praying for them, and actually help them. So if your my friend and in a hard time... You'll hear me say, I'm here for you, if theres anything I can do I'll help, let me know. . . . What's the harm in doing both?

I couldn't agree more HC.

What's the harm in doing both?

Good Point HC

I love that comedian that cites football players that drop to one knee and thank God for allowing them to make a touchdown. He points out you never see a guy on the losing team say "Yeah...we were in the game...until Jesus made me fumble! He HATES our team!"

Funny stuff.

Thanks Ock, I'll drop you a line some other time.

As you will it, AB